Predestination

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predestinationPredestination: Its definition, its purpose and the reason it is necessary
Predestination is true because we find it in the Bible. Does it matter what it means? Does it have several meanings?
Certainly it matters and no it does not have several meanings. Does it really matter what saved means – or faith or
prayer or any other word in scripture? Can we just apply any word, any way we please?
That would be like saying that up can be down, sweet is bitter, black is white. good can be evil right is wrong.
People who say that they believe in predestination but yet at the same time they say that they believe man has, “free
will” must redefine the word predestinate as it is defined in the orginal text. In order to believe predestination and free
will at the same time, one must be so unstable as to call good, evil – black, white – up is down – right is wrong. It is
“idiocy” to believe such a thing, yet this is what the majority of the preachers of the world are saying. They have
interpreted the word predestination according to their own opinion and they are “idiotes”.
II Peter 1:2 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
Prophecy here is the word propheteia, which means “inspired” words spoken by an inspired preacher who is called of God. The word, private, in this text is the word, “idiotes”, from which we get our word idiot. The word idiotes means “unlearned”. The word “idea” comes from the word idiotes. Man has his own “idea” or opinion when he redefines a word of scripture, especially a word with all the depth of predestination. Such a man is an “idiot” and he is unlearned.
Romans 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he
might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Every word in this verse has an exact meaning. We will address all these words in the future but for the present we will look at the word “predestinate”. Before we do this, there is purpose why God must predestinate himself a family. The reason that God must predestinate a family is that all men are dead in sin. They are all depraved, totally, and completely without any light, truth, ability, or “will” to make themselves alive. They cannot bring about their own spiritual birth by their will.
Romans 3:10,11 “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (vs 11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
Psalms 39:5 “…. every man at his best state is altogether vanity.”
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth (uwr – wake up from the dead) up himself to take hold of thee: … “
Man has no ability or good in himself to be willing to come alive in Christ. Job said that all men drink iniquity like water (Job 15:16). It is by the will of God and not man that he is caused to come alive in Christ.
Job 14:4 “Who can bring a clean thing out of unclean? Not one.”
Proverbs 20:9 “Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?” (vs 12) “The hearing (shama -obedient) ear and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them.”
James says concerning the new birth: James 1:18 “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, …” The word “will” in this verse is the word boulema, meaning purpose. When man is dead in sin he has no righteous purpose in himself.
John tells us by whose will we receive new birth. John 1:13 “Which were born (spiritually) not of blood, nor of the “will” of the flesh, nor of the “will” of man, but of God. Man does not determine whether he will be “born again” and becomes a son of God. Those who believe they can “accept Christ” by their own, so called, “free will”, this is one verse that I cannot see how they justify in their minds. The word “will” in this verse is the word “thelema” and it means determination. Man does not “determine” his
salvation (which is the new birth) by his own will.
The Bible does not teach “Accept Christ as your personal saviour” in order to be saved. Paul says that the physical
man is sensual and he cannot “accept Christ”.
I Corinthians 2:14 “the natural (psuchikos – physical, sensual man) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
The word “receiveth” in this verse (I Cor. 2:14) is the Greek word “dechomai”. The word dech is the word ten, from which we get the word decade (ten years) and the word Decalogue (ten words/ten commandments). This word receiveth means to reach out willingly with the ten fingers (a figurative word of speech) and “accept” an offer that has been made. If a man could make the decision to “accept’ Christ by some righteous ability that was in him, then he could take credit for the beginning of his salvation.
Philippians 1:6 ” … He that hath “begun” (God the Father) a good work in you will preform it until the day of Jesus
Christ.”
Philippians 2:13 “It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
You say, “Jim, are you saying that all these preachers who preach about accepting Christ as a personal saviour are not telling the truth?” THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING. They are deceived and deceivers. They are lying, whether they are intentionally doing it or not.
You say, “What about the sinners prayer?” Doesn’t the Bible say, (Rom. 10:13) “For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved.” The “so called” sinners prayer is not the method of salvation. The next verse tells
the method of salvation. (vs 14) “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?” When the Philippian jailer came to Paul and Silas (Acts 16:30), he asked the question that has puzzled the mind of man from the beginning of time. “Sirs, what must I do to be saved? ” Paul did not take him down the “romans road” and say, “Do you know you are a sinner?” “Would you like to ‘git’ saved? Just repeat this prayer after me and really mean it in your heart.” This is one of the most idiotic statements. I’ve never heard a man sincerely seeking the Lord say, “I’m going to pray this prayer, but I’m not going to mean it.” Paul answered the Philippian jailer with no frills of salvation. He gave him no unnecessary word. His answer was straight and point blank, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.”
How men that call themselves preachers can muddy up such a simple answer is beyond me. Now, Paul did not say, “Believe that a man named Jesus once was alive on the earth and he claimed to be God in the flesh.” Where preachers have deserted truth is their failure to discern what the phrase “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” means. “Believe” means to have faith in someone in opposition of trusting all others, including ones own self. Believe is the verb form of the noun, faith. Let me give you these two Greek words from the original text. First let’s go over this word, “believe”, before covering the word “faith”.
Believe – pisteuo – entrust or commit to entrust, to have faith, put in trust with
Some will say, how do you “put trust in someone or something?” First of all, you must quit believing yourself or anyone else. Don’t trust a man and most of all don’t trust yourself (your sinners prayer or your “accept Christ” gospel). Believing God is believing him in opposition to believing self. It is having something in you that opposes self or “crucifies” self. That is called “born again”. When Jesus told Nicodemas, “Ye must be born again” (John 3:7) the word “again” is the Greek word: Anothen – from above, from the first, anew, from the beginning, the top … (II Thess. 2:13) “God hath “from the beginning” chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.) “Again” or Anothen comes from the word ano, meaning upward or on the top, above, high, or up. The primary root of the word is anti, meaning “in opposition to”, instead, contrast, or substitution.
Here it is!
The opposition to self in “believing” Christ is new birth or “born again”. When man opposes himself and trusts another, it is because he cannot trust his own ability to “accept Christ” or pray the sinners prayer for salvation. He must be born with a birth from above, which is Christ in us (Col. 1:27) that opposes this outer man, which is “self”. Self must die and man has no ability to bring about his own physical birth, much less a spiritual birth. Before conception in a womb occurs, the future being that is about to be conceived by its parents does not say, “I accept you as my parents”. How can he or she “accept” his parents, he (she) does not exist yet? This sounds ridiculous, I realize, yet that is what a man is saying when he says, “I am dead in sin, and have no life in me and I am not a spiritual being yet I have enough life, light, will or being to will myself into spiritual existence”. That would be like a man saying, “I died once and I willed myself to come alive from the dead”. Man does not make himself alive in new birth. The word “guicken” is the Greek word zoopoieo, meaning to “make alive”. The root words are: Zoon – (we see live animals in a zoo) alive thing, animal and Poieo – make or do (Therefore, quicken means “to make alive”.) God quickens (makes alive), man does not.
John 5:21 “For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth (Zoopoieo) them; even so the Son (Jesus)
quickeneth (Zoopoieo) whom he will” (“will” is the word etheleo – to determine, desire, be disposed, please)
John 6:63 “It is the Spirit that quickeneth (makes alive); the flesh profiteth nothing (It is not the will of the flesh –
John 1:13)
Ephesians 2:1 and vs 5 “And you hath he quickened (zoopoieo – make alive/born again) who were dead – (vs 5) –
when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (zoopoieo) us together with Christ.
This “Believing” that is in us – which opposes self and believes Jesus Christ in (opposition to all others) is the new birth. It is called being born again with a birth in us that opposes this flesh daily (self denial/daily cross). This “quickening” or coming alive has nothing to do with the will of man or “accepting Christ”. This is the great lie of the apostasy that is in full force in the world today.
Salvation is death to “self will”. Believe is the verb (pisteuo), faith is the noun (pistis)
The definition of faith in the text of scripture: Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the substance of things hoped for … … “
There is only one faith (Eph. 4:5 – one Lord, “one faith”, one baptism …). There is not a faith for salvation then another faith that is like a “magic bubble” that gets what self wants. Faith dies to self and opposes self (in new birth). Faith equals substance. Regardless of what preachers say, “substance” does not mean money, houses, cars, things and stuff. Faith believes God for what he wants in our lives in opposition to what we want (self, things, position, fortune, fame etc.)
By defining the word “substance” (Heb. 11:1) we find that opposition (anti) in us that we cannot do ourselves.
Substance – hupostasis – a setting under (support), assurance, confidence, confident, person
From two words: hupo – under of place (beneath) or with verbs (the agency or means through) underneath, below, inferior position
or condition (under or through). Stao or histemi – to stand (transitive or intransitive/the act or state of being) abide, appoint, continue, establish, hold up, set up
From stao we get the following:
stasis – a standing (the act) position (existence) uprising, controversy
stauros – the Greek word for cross a stake or a post (as set upright) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capitol
punishment) self denial, atonement
stauroo – the word crucify or impale on a cross, extingguish, subdue passion or subdue selfishness
stereos – stiff, solid, stable, steadfast, strong, sure
Faith is crucifying our self and continuing (through/hupo) daily, standing (stasis) upright (histemi/stao). Faith is continuing through (hupo), undergoing the daily cross, crucifying self and dying daily. When a man opposes himself he takes sides with God against himself. Since man is unable to die to the flesh and deny self (he is dead in sin – he does not seek after God), God must arrange the lives of his elect. God prepares the “good ground” (fertile ground -our hearts) ahead of time. Then he arrainges for his elect to hear the preaching of the truth (riding down the road in a car – talking to a friend etc.). He sends the seed (sperma -masculine gender) which is the word (Christ made flesh -John 1:14) of God. The seed is the most powerful, potent seed that has ever existed. It hits the fertile ground (ourhearts of flesh) that God has prepared before the foundation of the world. It is impossible for the fertile seed to be sewn in fertile ground (with all the necessary planting, oxygen, and necessary husbandry (I Col. 3:9)) by the farmer/the Father and not have life spring forth.
I Corinthians 3:9 – Ye are Gods husbandry
(“husband” is the word georgion – farm, cultivatable – from ge meaning soil or ground, and ergon meaning toil, work
or labour. From georgos meaning “earthworker or farmer” – The word husband means farmer or tiller of the earth.)
It is the farmer or the husband of the crop that planted the seed. The Rabbis said that the male genital was the plow and the woman’s genital was called the garden or the furrow where the husband (farmer) planted the seed. If the womb was open, then the ground or womb was fruitful or fertile. A family was a kingdom. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were God’s family or kingdom. Jacobs name was changed to Israel. Kingdom of God was an old ancient name for Israel. Israel was God’s family. It is not by choice that a man is conceived and birthed into a family. It is by the will of the father. The field is plowed by the husband or farmer and the seed (sperma) is planted into good ground. It is an utter impossibility to plant good seed (the word/sperma of God) into fertile ground by the husband (father/farmer) and not bring forth life. It is impossible for you to say truth (word/seep) to the elect, regardless of how you say it, and them not come alive. Quit worrying about whether he put the seed in the ground with the right hand or the left or if he did it gentle enough.
The word father in the Hebrew is the word Ab and it means “to decide or desire”. It is by the will of the father (husband/farmer) that a child is born. It is by the will of the farmer that a crop is planted and nourished in the good ground. The child has no more will to be birthed than corn has the desire to grow on the stalk. The child is caused to be willing to obey the father after he is born, but he has no part in his conception, coming into being or birth. When the father plants the seed (by arrangement of events) into good (fertile) ground, the miracle of conception happens and it is impossible for the child who is coming into being to choose to be or not to be conceived or birthed. The child who is not in existence, yet, cannot say, “I do not choose for my fathers sperm to fertilize my mothers egg, even though they are not my father and my mother (yet) and I have not yet come into existence.”

You say, “Jim, this sounds stupid”. That is exactly what I am saying about “accept Christ”. When a dead sinner is not alive he cannot choose to be birthed into God’s family (kingdom) or to reject him since new birth is of God (James 1:18 – ” Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”). He does not exist (spiritually) yet. Dead men cannot make “living” or life decisions. Seed that is planted by the husband/farmer must die in order for life to come from it.
I Corinthians 15:36 “That which thou sowest is not quickened (zoopoieo – made alive), except it die.
John 12:24 “Verily, Verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it adideth alone: but
if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Therefore faith (death to self) does not begin in our lives until God puts it into our hearts. Faith is the substance (continual dying daily) and it believes God and opposes self. Faith is not a one time thing. Faith increases and grows (II Peter 1:5, Luke 17:5-10) until the day we go to be with God. Faith believes God and obeys him. Faith opposes self (the flesh) and is disobedient to self. Faith denies (aparneomai – utterly contradicts – Luke 9:23) self and takes up the cross daily in order to obey God.
Romans 10:17 “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This word “hear” is the word: akouo – to understand and obey
The New Testament word for “obey” is the word hupakouo. It comes from hupo, meaning under and akouo, meaning to hear under as a subordinate – “to hear is to obey”. Faith comes about by the scourage or the rod. The Old Testament Hebrew word for “hear, hearken,” and “obey”, is the same word: shama – to hear intelligently, attention, intelligence, consent, be content (with God’s decision for our life), “be obedient” understand or witness (which is the word martus in the Greek – martus comes from martyr). Faith is to martyr oneself by proclaiming truth. Faith is to martyr oneself by the daily cross in order that we obey God. Predestination is conforming and obeying God. Death to self is faith that we are predestined unto. Faith is death to self (death to the flesh by the daily cross) so that the new birth (born again – in opposition to the flesh) shall take over (instead of or in place of the old man). Since mans only desire is to fulfill the flesh and he is unable to by his total sinful nature (Romans 3:10-12, Psalms 39:5) to make himself alive (zoopoieo – quicken) God had to choose himself a family and birth them, otherwise, he would never have a family. He chooses us, births us according to his will, then when we come to the realization that we are his we must obey him (which is faith). Like faith, the gospel and truth, predestination is about obedience. He causes this obedience by the scourge, chastisement or the rod. This obedience (accountability/responsibility) is what predestination is all about. The “scourge” causes us to do what he has “predestined” us unto. It causes us to do what we cannot bring ourselves to do.
“Predestination” is about obedience to the word of God and living inside the “border or boundaries” which he hath set down for us.
This leads us into the word “predestinate” (not a general opinion, but rather an exact definition).
Romans 8:29,30 – “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (vs,30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Predestinate is the Greek word, pro’orizo. Pro’orizo means to prebound or predetermine boundary lines in advance.
Pro’orizo is a construction of the prefix pro (our prefix :pre”, meaning before) and the Greek word, “‘orizo – to bound or to mark out a boundary, to appoint, decree, specify, declare, determine, limit, ordain. The small mark ‘ before the word, ” ‘orizo is called a diacritical mark. It has an “h” sound, a breathing or breathy sound “hugh”. The word ‘orizo is written “horizo” and pronounced “horidzo” ( the “z” is pronounced “dz” in the Greek). This word looks similar to our word “horizon”. That is because it is exactly our word “horizon”. The horizon was a familiar boundary line to the Jewish mind. It was the division or boundary of light (day) and darkness (night). Matt 5:14 Jesus said, “Ye are the light of the world.” Light is equated with Truth throughout scripture. Paul said, “Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord, walk as children of light. – have no fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness” (Eph. 5:8,11). Again, Paul said, “Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers – what communion hath light with darkness?” (II Cor. 6:14). Unbelievers are equated as living in darkness, therefore believers are equated with light – light is always equivalent to Truth. We are commanded to walk in the light.
I John 1:5-7 “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (vs 6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: (vs 7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” We are commanded to do the Truth (the light is Truth).
John 3:21 “But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in
God.
We have been predetermined for the boundary of truth, or light. God has pre-truthed his family to walk righteously and conform to Christ’s image (eikon – representation). God has pre-horizoned his family before the foundation of the world. God has conceived and birthed his family by his own will.
James 1:18 “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”
John 1:13 “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 5:21 “For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth (zoopoieo – make alive) them: even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.”
Quickened means to make alive – God begats us as his children and makes us alive in his family. After we come alive (by the will of God), he requires obedience to the light (Truth) inside the boundary (‘orizo) of light. Truth is something we “do”. It is not mere assent (John 3:21). Righteousness is what a man does – not merely a moral state or disposition.
John 3:7,10 “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that “doeth” righteousness is righteous, even as he is
righteous. (vs 10) “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever “doeth not”
righteousness is not of God — “
Birth is into a family or Kingdom. You see, in the ancient world a family was called a kingdom. In fact, the Kingdom of God was God’s family. Kingdom of God was an old ancient term for Israel. You say, “Jim, how can Israel be a family?” Israel was nothing but a family. God made a covenant with Abraham and his seed (children). This is a family.
Genesis 17:7 “And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy see after thee.
God continued this covenant with Abraham’s “2nd” born son Isaac (this is a family) Genesis 17:21 – my covenant will

I establish with Isaac, –Isaac gives the birthright to his “2nd” born son Jacob (even through deception – Gen. 25:29-34, Gen. 27:1-29). Then God confirms that Jacob (of the “family” of Abraham) will continue to be God’s family. Then, in Jacob this family becomes a nation or kingdom – In this “family” of Abraham, God changes Jacob’s name to “Israel” causing this family to become a kingdom (or nation).
Genesis 32:28 “And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: For as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.”
Genesis 35:10 “And God said unto him, thy name is Jacob: Thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: And he called his name Israel.
“Lord” was the title of the head of a family just as it was the title for the head of a kingdom. Jacob (or Israel) had 12 sons (a family). They became the “Kingdom of God” with God’s chosen king coming from Judah the fourth son of Jacob (of the family or Kingdom of God). God’s people are birthed by his will into his family (kingdom). Just as any righteous father requires obedience (remember, faith cometh by hearing, hearing means to obey) in his household, so God sets a prearranged boarder/boundary (pro’orizo) by which he requires his people to walk. Every responsible father sets rules and laws for those to walk in his family. We are not saved by works of self righteousness or ritual. We are saved by God working in us.
Ephesians 2:10 “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 2:13 “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Faith dies to self and comes aliive in God’s kingdom (Israel). Yes we are spiritual Jews (Rom. 2:28-29). We are the spiritual temple (I Cor. 3:16) – we offer daily acceptable sacrifices (Luke 9:23, Rom. 12:1) we are priests of God (I Peter 2:5,9) we are God’s house (Heb. 3:16). The Holy of Holies was called the house of God where God dwelt (built a house) between the cherubim – Now our hearts (not the ark of the covenant) are sprinkled by the blood of Christ (I Peter 1:2, Heb. 10:22). We are circumcised with a spiritual circumcision (Col. 2:11). Circumcision was for cleanliness in sexual reproduction for future generation of a family. It was “the” requirement for all who entered this family (kingdom). The male genital had to be circumcised in order to keep the commandment of God in order that the future “healthy” generations would be produced in this family/kingdom. As mentioned above, the Hebrew word for father is Ab. It means to decide or desire. We are God’s family and he has determined exactly who his children and family will be and their obedience in his kingdom, as well. We as the predestined elect are the spiritual kingdom, the Israel (to prevail) of God.
Galatians 6:15,16 ” For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (vs 16) And as many as walk according to this rule (kanon – standard scripture, “boundary”), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
God has predestinated his family to live in his word or boundary. A father determines that his children will live in the borders, which are his rules, as the head of the family. The boundary is the word of the father.
Romans 9:6,7 ” …. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (vs 7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Isaac was raised from the dead – this is the resurrection.)
Isaac was raised from the dead loins of his father and the dead womb of his mother (Rom. 4:19,20). Abraham was
100 years old, Sarah was ninety. They could not have a son – BUT THEY DID !!!
Romans 11:7 “Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded … “
What does all this spiritual family/kingdom of Israel have to do with predestination? It has everything to do with it. Let me tell you. The Septuagint was the first translation of scripture. It is one of our most reliable translations. Septuagint means “seventy”. Old Testament into Greek language. Since the Greek had many roots and customs from the ancient Hebrew world, the Septuagint is said to be one of the most reliable (if not the most reliable) translations word for word. In the book of Joshua, God preset the borders and boundaries of Israel (the kingdom/family). The nation (kingdom/family) would occupy certain borders. When the word border was translated from Hebrew to the Greek, the seventy translators understood the most common word for border (gebul). This “border” of Israel, they translated to the word – ‘ORIZO
Yes, the border of Israel was prearranged. The law was received by Moses, from God on Mount Sinai n the South Sinai Peninsula fifty days into the desert after the first passover in Egypt (when I see the blood on the doorposts I will pass over you). The first Pentecost was at Mount Sinai. Pentecost was fifty days after passover. Moses received the prearranged law (Truth/light) by which Israel would be required to live (in the kingdom /family) when they reached the ‘orizo (border/horizon) where the truth would come forth from Mount Zion (where the temple sits in Jerusalem). Zion means “sunny” or where the sun shines (inside the horizon/’orizo). Israel was predestined (pro’orizo) to conform to the Word (the Word was made flesh John 1:14) of God. As spiritual Jews, the predestined elect are predestinated to be conformed (summorphos – shaped in fellowship of Christ’s sufferings) to the image (eikon – representation) of his Son (Jesus, the Word and the authority of God). No, this is not salvation by works. It is God working in his children whom he has begotten by his own will in his family/kingdom. God’s kingdom (Israel) is called the Kingdom of Light.
-Reposted from graceandtruth.net
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Posted on January 15th 2015 in Uncategorized

23 Responses to “Predestination”

  1. Fish Says:

    You would agree that the Scriptures say, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God…” (Romans 3:23) and “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one…” (Romans 3:10). And would you agree that God said, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”? Also, do you see that there are “good people” on this Earth? When Jesus was confronted by a man who called Jesus good, here is what is said, “…Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18)
    “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 53:6)
    If all humanity has sinned and has earned death by their rebellion against God and His Law, He would be totally just in sending all to Hell, right? So what is unfair, if all deserve death based on the same standard, God chose to spare some of His creatures? He is the Creator and as such, has the right to do as He pleases with His creation. As is said in Romans 9:13-23: ‘As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
    For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory…’
    We don’t enter in by our striving, but by His good pleasure. We hate predestination because it’s totally out of our control.

  2. T. Says:

    I will have to confess to being an “idiote” as I completely agree with the argument for predestination and God having foreknowledge of His own, ( My sheep hear My voice…) however, God is completely just, and does not condemn sinners without cause. The law is only in effect for sinners, and is lawful if used lawfully. With much longsuffering, He allows sinners an opportunity to repent. I totally agree that “accepting Christ” is un-Biblical. The command God gives is “to repent.” When sinners “choose” not to repent, they are morally culpable, the law is in effect, and unless they be born again they will perish. Repentance and faith are by the working of the Holy Spirit, and the will of God. Adam and Eve were created perfect, they were not predestined to sin, although God in His foreknowledge knew they would. As their children, we are now not made perfectly, having a sinners nature. The dead can only hear if God quickens, which He does by the power of His Word. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not the elect’s only. His will is that none should perish. If the Word of God comes, and is rejected, that person is morally culpable, having made a choice to do so.God sent His word to Pharaoh through Moses, an act of mercy, which Pharaoh rejected and received the penalty of his disobedience.God still sent Moses, even though He knew Pharaoh would disobey. God is completely right in His judgement of sinners. Everything that happens is not God’s will. If that were true, then God would be guilty of sin himself, which is impossible as He is holy and He requires that we be holy, through His Power so that we can overcome sin and live a sanctified life. God’s sovereignty and His allowance for man to morally choose are not incompatible. God’s sovereignty is infinite, and man’s moral choices are finite, meaning, nothing is impossible with God. I am glad that He came to seek and save that which was lost. He did not create it lost, it became so through the fall, and death is the righteous judgment for sin. But thanks be to God for our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself a ransom for many! All glory, and honor and power be to His name forevermore, for His mercy endures forever.

  3. Fish Says:

    I just want to deal with Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart issue.

    Who hardened Pharaoh’s heart? Even if the Lord did it once, it throws “Freewill” out the window.

    And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. (‭Exodus‬ ‭7‬:‭3‬ KJV)

    And he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said. (‭Exodus‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬ KJV)

    And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses. (‭Exodus‬ ‭9‬:‭12‬ KJV)

    But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. (‭Exodus‬ ‭10‬:‭20‬ KJV)

    But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go. (‭Exodus‬ ‭10‬:‭27‬ KJV)

    And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. (‭Exodus‬ ‭11‬:‭10‬ KJV)

    And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so. (‭Exodus‬ ‭14‬:‭4‬ KJV)

    Ah, here it says Pharaoh hardened his heart. I would be interested what a word study would reveal. Would it reveal that when it says things like,”…Pharaoh’s heart is hardened…”, would it show that as a result of an outside force, or of his own doing?

    And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. (‭Exodus‬ ‭7‬:‭14‬ KJV) (This is directly following v13 where the Lord hardened Pharoah’s heart.)

    But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said. (‭Exodus‬ ‭8‬:‭15‬ KJV)

    And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. (‭Exodus‬ ‭8‬:‭32‬ KJV)

    And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken by Moses. (‭Exodus‬ ‭9‬:‭35‬ KJV) (v12 says the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart.)

    What say you to this topic, T., in light of your comments on Pharoah’s heart?

  4. T. Says:

    Romans 1:18-21

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;for God hath shewed it unto them.

    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Pharaoh had already rejected the light of his conscience and knowledge of God, therefore God gave him over to a reprobate mind ( hardened his heart). He was then, by his own choice, unable to respond to the mercy of God, a fact which should put considerable fear into every man.

    Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation,in the day of temptation in the wilderness.

    Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While its is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

    The deceitfulness of sin is the hardening agent, sent by God, to His glory, with Pharaoh’s complicit choice. God did not make Pharaoh choose this way, Pharaoh chose and God gave him the fruit of his choice, a hard and unrepenting heart in the face of mercy.

    Jesus said that the words he spoke were both Spirit and life, powerful, quickening, sharper than a double edged sword. The power of His word is able to make the dead live again. He calls things that are not as though they are. That is why we are responsible to speak it and witness to it, and why those that hear it are responsible to respond to it.

  5. Faith Says:

    I agree with T.
    It’s like how the homosexuals say,” God made me this way”! No He didn’t. Their sin hardened their heart and He gave them over to a reprobate mind. Again they had the free will to choose to be gay, God did not create them that way or make them participate in such acts. He gave them over.

    Faith

  6. T. Says:

    Excellent point Faith!

  7. T. Says:

    We could use this example too: God appointed me from the foundation of the world to preach this truth to you according to the word of God, it is now up to you to decide if you will believe truth or not. The choice is yours. The Bible says “Let God be true and every man a liar,” so don’t trust what I say or any man for that matter, whether he knows greek or not. Trust that God said He would preserve His word, Trust that He is able to keep His promises, Trust that He is good and holy, because he says so, and that a broken and contrite spirit he will in no wise cast out. If you really want to know what is true, ask Him, and wait for Him to respond. He is gracious, a bruised reed he will not break, His mercy is forever, and He came to seek and save that which is lost. He died for us while we were yet sinners, how much more does He want us to be long suffering and kind with those that oppose themselves. Believe on the Lord, trust Him and His word. Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your heart!

  8. Fish Says:

    T, you postulated, //Pharaoh had already rejected the light of his conscience and knowledge of God, therefore God gave him over to a reprobate mind ( hardened his heart). He was then, by his own choice, unable to respond to the mercy of God, a fact which should put considerable fear into every man.//
    How did you come to the conclusion that in Romans 1 where it says that God gave them over to a reprobate mind, that that phrase means “hardened their hearts”? Did you come up with that on your own, or is that something that you were taught?

    Next, you say:
    //The deceitfulness of sin is the hardening agent, sent by God, to His glory, with Pharaoh’s complicit choice. God did not make Pharaoh choose this way, Pharaoh chose and God gave him the fruit of his choice, a hard and unrepenting heart in the face of mercy.//
    The deceitfulness of sin is one way God uses to harden the hearts of men, but the Word does not make the claim that it is the only way hearts are hardened. You seem to be claiming that. You directly contradict Scripture when you say that “God did not make Pharaoh choose this way…”

    (Intentional Action by God) And he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, (Intended Reaction) that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said. (‭Exodus‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬ KJV)

    (Intentional Action by God) And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, (Intended Reaction) and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses. (‭Exodus‬ ‭9‬:‭12‬ KJV)

    (Intentional Action by God) But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, (Intended Reaction) SO THAT he would not let the children of Israel go. (‭Exodus‬ ‭10‬:‭20‬ KJV)

    Also, God was not offering Pharaoh mercy. He raised Pharaoh up for this reason (Romans 9:17).
    Your last paragraph in the 4th comment is a bunch of spiritual talk, but really didn’t prove anything specific for this discussion. All I can say is, “OK, that’s true. Thanks.”

    T, are you talking to me in your last comment, or M4T? I don’t know Greek or Hebrew (the original languages that the Scriptures were written in), but in relation to the English Bible, I can use an Interlinear Bible and a Strong’s concordance and look up the Gr and Heb that we got our English translation from.
    Good sermonette, though. I know you don’t know me and therefore haven’t had the opportunity to examine my fruit to make a righteous judgment regarding whether God has saved me or not, but the manner in which you were preaching and your word choices make it obvious to me that it was directed toward an unsaved person. Someone who doesn’t know Truth. I suppose I’m fair game to you. But if it was intended for M4T, was it her merely reposting this article that caused you to believe that about her? Or was it something else?

  9. Faith Says:

    You can not judge someone only by their fruit. You have to judge their doctrine also. People in cults produce good fruit too. But their doctrines are based on lies.

  10. T. Says:

    I am speaking to anyone who is reading(listening). Jesus said we should take heed that no man deceive us. I will tell you ( and anyone listening) plainly that I have been deceived before, and it was by fair speeches and words, things that had the appearance of truth, without the substance. What is being taught by Jim Brown, according to his own website, is a form of Calvinism. I am not saying that there are not Calvinists who are not saved, but I will say that in light of what the Scripture teaches, it is a grave error. In order to excuse themselves and others, they ascribe to God what they themselves are responsible for, removing the culpability for their actions. Calvinism throughout history has led to the most shameful acts of slavery and murder of those who were not considered the elect. The elect were always blameless for cruelty because they were, well, elect. Calvin and Zwingli were responsible for drowning Anabaptists and killing those with whom they did not agree. The Bible no where teaches this. If I were to continue with the argument that, well, everything that happens is God’s will, then it would be God’s will for Calvin and Zwingli to drown Anabaptists and those with whom they do not agree. This would fly directly in the face of what God had written in the Scriptures in how to treat others, i.e. love your neighbor as yourself and love worketh no ill to his neighbor. The fact that the Anabaptists submitted to this treatment, often praying for their killers and persecuters shows that they were obedient to God in the face of great distress. They did the will of God, which is to obey Him and His word, no matter what. Jesus said I came not to do my own will, but the will of My Father. God knew Pharaoh would be disobedient. He chose to be so. God gave him his choice, and used him and his fatal choice to His glory. The Lord Jesus had the choice to obey, also, which he magnificently and gloriously fulfilled. Man has a responsibility before God to choose and obey.
    The “bunch of spiritual talk” is meant to show God’s character, and response to someone who is repentant. Even as saved people, every day, we need to be humble and repentant before the Lord, remembering the pit from which we were dug. The attitude of the publican, O Lord have mercy on me! Moses frequently interceded for Israel in their rebellion. He did not just cast them off, even when the Lord said he would make a nation out of Moses and bring his wrath upon the people. Moses still interceded. Abraham asked for mercy for Sodom and Gomorrah, if only 10 righteous folks were to be found. Jesus said, ” Go and learn what this means, I will have mercy and not sacrifice.” I am not attacking you, I am making a plea.
    On another note, Jim Brown seems to do a lot of “correcting” of the text with the Greek. I do not speak Greek or Hebrew for that matter. If I were to sit under his teaching, I would be at his mercy. I would be at the mercy of Vines or Strongs for that matter. Word studies are not bad, but correcting the text with them can be dangerous. I believe God is able to preserve His words, in fact, He promised to do so. The scholarship that went into the KJV would be very difficult to come by today. There were many, many people involved. The fact that that many people could agree on the translations is in itself a miracle. It has accurately maintained the Hebraisms and used nouns for nouns and verbs for verbs, rather than being a dynamic equivalent, like the modern versions. The Greek is interesting, but not necessary. By the way, I am not saying that the KJV supersedes the Greek, as some suggest, only that it is an accurate and faithful translation of it. For those who wish to study Greek and Hebrew, by all means, study! But, the average English speaker can be confident that what he is reading is a faithful translation. For those who say that King James was a homosexual, that he was a freemason etc, will be hard pressed from the actual historical record to find it so. Even if that were the case, he had nothing to do with the actual translation. I am leery of men who try to obfuscate the text and say that it doesn’t really mean what it says. As a former evangelical who read the modern versions, I was constantly trying to find out what the “real” meaning of the text was. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. I do not have to rely on teachers, the Holy Spirit is able to lead and teach. Paul said that if believers had a disagreement, they could pray, and the Lord would lead them to the truth. I think in fairness, you and M4T have stated your belief, and I have stated mine, so, for myself, I am praying that His Truth would be made evident. If I have missed or overlooked something, I pray that He will show it to me. What I have stated is in no way an attack. I will say M4T was very eager to go on offense with her family, I mean blood relatives, I’m sure she has her reasons, however, the unkindness and ungraciousness of her comments while she was relaying truth did not indicate a spirit of humility or mercy, but rather one of pride and self-righteousness. As I stated before, we all need to repent, Jesus wants us to be merciful and long suffering, God requires that we contend for truth, strongly if necessary, but always in love. That is being conformed to the image of his Son.

  11. Dad4Truth Says:

    A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matt 7:18

    This certainly doesn’t mean that a remnant believer can’t sin nor that a hell bound person can’t do something “good”. I would consider a person’s “doctrine” part of their fruit. The further that I study the Word and consider the things of God, the more I realize how completely wrong it was for me to make absolute statements about doctrines that I was ignorant in. There are many doctrines that I KNEW to be true at one point that now I wouldn’t make an absolute statement on (eschatology) and many doctrines that I’m finally understanding the truth of (predestination). Shedding off man-made doctrines has proven to be really tough to do because when you read the scriptures, it’s a real effort to do so without a predefined understanding of what is being said. That is where studying the original language has been invaluable as it can shed some serious light on a passage of the Word where men have distorted the meaning for thousands of years (John 3:16). The message of the Bible is a simple message, however, the depth of the Word is complex beyond belief.

    The argument that God doesn’t choose because he is “fair” doesn’t hold water. God’s justice is perfect and ours is not. We can’t see condemning someone who is “innocent” as fair but that is a warped view. No one is innocent and God creating some for salvation and some for destruction is not unfair. Romans 8:29 literally says that God predestines salvation. Not that he just knows who will and won’t choose. He chooses, we do not.

    The typical response to an argument for predestination includes something about Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist and am not of Calvin. Calvin did not create the doctrine of predestination, God did.

    T: You said that you don’t agree with “accepting Christ” but that you feel that a person must repent. Isn’t that just saying the same thing? You’re saying that you can choose to repent. I understand if you’re talking about the different between repenting for sins and just saying the sinner’s prayer but both options are putting the responsibility on the person. You can’t choose to be born and you can’t choose to be born again. God has to put life into you by His will only.

    Ephesians 2:1-8:

    1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    God quickened us, raised us up, and not by ourselves but because of His grace.

  12. T. Says:

    When the Spirit of God comes, it is the quickening agent, it can be accepted as true or rejected. You are not a robot, or soil, something inanimate, you are a living being with the breath of life and a will. You can either accept the miraculous gift of repentance when it comes, or reject it. The Bible says that where no law is, there is no sin. Each man is given a conscience with the law written on his heart. He either will determine truthfully that he is a sinner, and testify against himself, or deny the truth. Why would Jesus and the Apostles teach repentance and faith towards Jesus Christ if it were not possible to repent? Predestination only teaches that God knows the end from the beginning, and that he created man as he is, and set the boundaries and laws as they are, and then proceeded to give each man his opportunity to respond to truth. He could have changed the created order to a universal salvation, but He did not, because He seeks those who would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I want my children to obey me from the heart, out of love and respect, not because they are robots that I have programmed to do my bidding. I want them to know me, and interact with me. God is fair. He says that the son shall not pay for the sins of the father. And He sent his own Son to die, because the debt of sin had to be paid, He could not just overlook it, and no one else was able to bear the punishment. That Jesus did willingly, He was not programmed or forced to do so. Love is a choice made with the will. I am not responsible for my mother’s sins. They are hers. I am not responsible for my father’s sins. They are his. I am only responsible for my sins. I will not be judged according to someone else’s sins, only my own. I have no righteousness of my own, only Jesus’. He is God. And I am not forced to love Him, I love Him of my own free will and wish to obey Him, because He loved me first. I don’t deny that God is Sovereign, I don’t deny that He subjected creation to futility, or that in one man all became sinners, I do not deny that Salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit, but you must admit that God accords guilt, rightly, for not repenting and trusting in Jesus, and that implies a moral choice. The flesh profits nothing. It is true you have no choice over your physical birth. But you are not only physical. You are a thinking, rational being, with God’s law in your conscience, a spirit and soul. A horse behaves the way it does because it is programmed to do so. It is true that we are not born again of our own will, however it is also true that “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

  13. Mya Says:

    T.. M4T is a friend of mine and I love her, but I did not know that she believed this way, until recently. I did email her and ask her about my concerns, and she graciously replied to me. I have not got around to replying back to her. However, I have to be honest and tell you that I COMPLETELY agree with you.

    I have a sister (relative) that believes in Predestination. For many years she was secretive about her beliefs (I am NOT saying that M4T is like that!), and as I did not see much of her, I had a growing feeling of concern that she belonged to a cult. Bear in mind, I too was in a church (evangelical) that was pushing all sorts of lies with all their ‘new’ doctrines. I do thank the Lord, that after many years of searching, and I confess, after many years of moving 2 steps forward with God, and 10 steps back.. I put everything aside and asked God to show me HIS truth. It has been a long and often exhausting (mentally and spiritually) journey. I have looked at ALL sides of the arguments that people have used, with scripture, and I finally accepted that, although God in His sovereignty, knows the future, He gave man FREE will to choose spiritual life or death.

    I always tell people that every single one of us will be accountable to GOD one day.. and we cannot take away the fact that sin is a choice, just as Jesus gave us a choice to choose Him, or not. I am not highly educated, nor have I studied theology.. I am a simple woman with a simple belief in Jesus Christ. When we start to take a man’s words over the words of the Lord.. as so many do with John Calvin and Roussas Rushdoony, and others.. we are in very dangerous territory. I too do not read any other bible than the KJV now.. for the same reasons as you said, T. I actually do not read any ‘Christian’ books anymore either, for we are human as you said T, and we can be so easily deceived.

    Recently in the UK, TBN began broadcasting on our ‘Freeview’ system. Just out of curiosity (.. and you know what happened to the cat?!) I thought I would take a look at the TBN channel to see who, and what was on. I found myself being ‘drawn’ in to what the person was saying.. and I had to catch myself and change the channel. Satan is so clever!

    I am now 53 years old.. and I gave my life to Jesus when I was 9 years old.. I have also been to many different ‘types’ of and denominations of churches.. heard many varying doctrines and ‘tweeks’ of the bible. I can truly say that I am now settled in my heart and have peace with God. That is not to say that I don’t sin or fall short, and there are things I still need to learn. I will and DO ask advice from other Christians, but again, I go back to God’s word for the ultimate answers. And I will go back, again and again, until I am SURE that the Holy Spirit has settled the answer for me, through God’s word.

    There is no point in me putting up bible verses, because you have all done that already.. and I don’t wish to argue. I say all this is a spirit of kindness, truth and true sisterly love for you M4T. There are many things we agree on.. many things you write that I can nod my head in agreement.

    My prayer to the Lord, is that we can all help each other in a spirit of Christian love and faith, and not stoop, as so many do, to human pride.

    I have nothing but love in my heart for you M4T. And in that spirit, I would be doing you a disservice to agree with you on Predestination. I do not know your heart, as God does, and He sees and knows what your family have, or have not, done to you. But I have to agree with T, regarding your letter to your family, and I quote from T above.. ‘I’m sure she has her reasons, however, the unkindness and ungraciousness of her comments while she was relaying truth did not indicate a spirit of humility or mercy, but rather one of pride and self-righteousness. As I stated before, we all need to repent, Jesus wants us to be merciful and long suffering, God requires that we contend for truth, strongly if necessary, but always in love. That is being conformed to the image of his Son.’

    I only hope that you take this the way it is intended my friend. It is your choice whether you publish it or not, and I will not be offended if you don’t. I am always on the other end of an email to talk to if you still wish to talk.

  14. T. Says:

    Amen Mya :)

  15. Fish Says:

    Mya,
    Our disagreement over Predestination will not keep me from commending you on your spirit of lovingkindness toward M4T.

  16. Mom4Truth Says:

    Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: *and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed*.”

    Exodus 33:19 “And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.”

    Deuteronomy 7:7 “The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people.”

    1 Samuel 2:25 “If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.”

    Joshua 11:20 “For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.”

    2 Chronicles 22:7 “And the destruction of Ahaziah was of God by coming to Joram: for when he was come, he went out with Jehoram against Jehu the son of Nimshi, whom the LORD had anointed to cut off the house of Ahab.”

    2 Chronicles 25:20 “But Amaziah would not hear; for it came of God, that he might deliver them into the hand of their enemies, because they sought after the gods of Edom.”

    Haggai 2:23 “In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.”

    John 13:18 “I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.”

    John 15:19 “If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.”

    Romans 9:11 “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.”

    Romans 16:13 “Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.”

    Galatians 1:15 “But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace.”

    John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.”

    2 Timothy 1:9 “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.”

    Ephesians 1:4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.”

    Titus 1:1 “Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.”

    Acts 2:23 “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.”

    Colossians 3:12 “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.”

    Revelation 13:8 “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

    Mark 4:10-12 “And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

    Romans 11:4-5 “But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

    Acts 2:39 “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

    1 Corinthians 1:24-26 “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.”

    Proverbs 16:4 “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

    James 1:18 “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.”

    Romans 1:6 “Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ.”

    1 Peter 1:2 “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

    1 Thessalonians 1:4 “Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.”

    Romans 8:33 “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.”

    John 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

    Jude 1:4 “For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    John 6:39 “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

    Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    2 Peter 1:10 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.”

    Acts 22:14 “And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.”

    Acts 4:28 “For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

    John 17:6 “I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

    John 17:2 “As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

    John 6:37 “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

    Luke 8:10 “And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.”

    Mark 13:22 “For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”

    Romans 11:8 “(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.”

    Romans 11:7 “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”

    Acts 4:27-28 “For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

    Luke 18:7 “And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?”

    John 17:9 “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.”

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    Matthew 20:23 “And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”

    Matthew 11:25 “At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”

    Isaiah 44:1-2 “Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.”

    Romans 9:22 “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?”

    -I intentionally didn’t include verses from Ephesians and Romans that specifically reference election and predestination.

    Obviously, this is not all “my” opinion. Wherein lies the dispute?

  17. Fish Says:

    Ahhh Scripture. The final arbiter.

  18. T. Says:

    The dispute lies in that it is also written…

    Deuteronomy 7:9-10 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them; he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

    Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

    Isaiah 1:16-20 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well, seek judgement, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

    Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD; and not that he should return from his ways and live?

    Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

  19. T. Says:

    Yes, the final arbiter.

  20. Mom4Truth Says:

    Thank you for the verses…

    Ezekiel 38:4 “And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords.”

    Isaiah 37:29 “Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest.”

    Ezekiel 29:4 “But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.”

    From all of the above verses we see God hardens, God blinds, God deafens, God causes people to slay others, God causes homosexuals to burn in their lust for one another (Romans 1:26), God causes people to slay their own children (Jeremiah 19:9), God puts hooks in jaws to bring evil doers against His people for righteous judgment.

    Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

    It is evident in Romans that He intentionally does not choose some to demonstrate His power. The verses you’ve shared are not incompatible with the character of God, who absolutely creates them with zero will or ability to choose to do good, and then has the gumption to send them to everlasting judgment for that. The only incompatibility is with man’s comfort level about that Biblical fact. You made a comment earlier that we are not robots. Where do you see that in Scripture? It is something we’ve all heard, but cannot be found in Scripture. Romans 9:21 says “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Romans 9:20 says we don’t get an opinion on that fact, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?”

    He tells us in Philippians 2:13 “For it is God which worketh in you both to will (to desire)and to do of his good pleasure.”

    In the verses you included, they can not respond to the call to repentance without God first preparing the soil and then calling them. They are helpless and are subject to His mercy- Showing mercy on those whom He will, and being gracious on those whom He will.

    Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”

    It’s all because of Him.

  21. Mya Says:

    Thank you Fish. I have seen, and felt, the consequences of Christians who speak harshly and unlovingly. I also understand that ‘agape’ love is not a wishy-washy feeling, and that we have to speak the TRUTH in love. Above all, God sees our hearts, and knows our intentions.

    Thank you too T. And last, but not least, I thank (M4T) for her loving and caring attitude towards me.

  22. Mom4Truth Says:

    I do love ya, Mya :)

  23. Timothy Pauly Says:

    I really like the blog and if you have any question, I am here for you sister.

    Agape and Phileo
    Worm

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